Curse

makosi · Nov 11, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Right now, Rit-spike is holding again thanks to the reverted Ancestor's Rage. Why the hell would they address the problem of Ancestor's Rage then revert it? Did they expect people to forget about rit-spike and pretend like it never existed?

I don't understand. What was the logic behind the change?

street peddler · Nov 11, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

it still functions the same it just isnt an enchantment anymore, it was a handy little dervish battery. Rit spike is still dead dont worry..

Master Ketsu · Nov 11, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Right now, Rit-spike is holding again thanks to the reverted Ancestor's Rage. Why the hell would they address the problem of Ancestor's Rage then revert it? Did they expect people to forget about rit-spike and pretend like it never existed?

I don't understand. What was the logic behind the change?

The current skill balancer is someone who suggested changing [skill]black lotus strike[/skill] to a 18 second recharge in an attempt to nerf shadow prison sins - which take 20 seconds to recharge anyways.... A change that would effectively nerf every build that uses black lotus Except SP sins. GG.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...bar_discussion

Skuld · Nov 11, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

That was back in July, and he's already made the other changes, learn to read.

Master Ketsu · Nov 11, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

That was back in July, and he's already made the other changes, learn to read.

it doesnt matter dude, it was still an obviously bad suggestion even at the time. SP has always been 20 seconds and to even suggest nerfing BLS to 18 seconds at any point in time during the timeline from when SP sins first came in existence ( NF released ) to today is/was just plain bad. I know you want to defend anet and all and I agree they have made a great game, and listening to the community has made their game alot more balanced then other MMO's ( just look at how much blizzard listens to their community and then look at WOW's skill balance. its 10 times worse then GW ever was. ) But izzy needs to actually test the OP builds people are complaining about. that BLS suggestion was BAD. theirs no defending it.

CHunterX · Nov 11, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Most people dislike HB because people don't die from slow pressure damage over 10 seconds, they die from huge bursts in short periods or from gigantic mob hits. LoD used to mop up most of what HB would do, but even with that somewhat out of the picture, I'd still rather prot the target, or spend 5e to WoH them.

Except, if you read on, I was talking about a W/Mo in AB, and some PvE areas which didn't originally have heroes. Not GvG, not LoD. And team is never going to have LoD in AB, before and after the nerf. I hope you aren't suggesting Whammos bring WoH or Prot spells for themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

For example, using the same 10 energy, Spirit Bond has to trigger only three times to be more effective - making it far better active defense.

Well, a Warrior in AB is unlikely to be hit for +60 over eight seconds, and is more likely going to be the target of degen. Same goes with PvE. See where I am going with this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHunterX

Would I recommend Healing Breeze outside of AB? Possibly for some PvE areas (particularly Prophecies and Factions areas, where Hench Monks are somewhat lacking), but if you have Heroes, your attributes are better spent boosting your attacks.

Guess I have to expand on this. Outside of AB and some PvE areas where you didn't or don't have access to Heroes, HB brought by a Warrior is a decent investment. Anywhere else and your better off spending attributes in your Weapon Mastery or Strength.

Skuld · Nov 11, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Pat showed Izzy that the change would be bad, so he didn't do it, I don't see the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

I know you want to defend anet and all

lolwut?

Master Ketsu · Nov 11, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Pat showed Izzy that the change would be bad, so he didn't do it, I don't see the problem.

Here is what I said. Ive highlighted the phrase that you decided to not read.

Quote:

it doesnt matter dude, it was still an obviously bad suggestion even at the time. SP has always been 20 seconds and to EVEN SUGGEST nerfing BLS to 18 seconds at any point in time during the timeline from when SP sins first came in existence ( NF released ) to today is/was just plain bad. I know you want to defend anet and all and I agree they have made a great game, and listening to the community has made their game alot more balanced then other MMO's ( just look at how much blizzard listens to their community and then look at WOW's skill balance. its 10 times worse then GW ever was. ) But izzy needs to actually test the OP builds people are complaining about. that BLS suggestion was BAD. theirs no defending it.

Skuld · Nov 11, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

I don't really see what you're getting at, meh.

Master Ketsu · Nov 11, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

I don't really see what you're getting at, meh.

Your failing to see that im bashing the very fact that he suggested it. While its true he redeemed himself by listening to those who pointed out why it was a poor idea, the fact remains that to even suggest such a thing proves that he is coming up with changes from thin air as opposed to fully examining the build ( in this case, the SP bar ) and similar skills before coming to a conclusion.

In other words, he's doing things logically backwards... coming up with a conclusion before examination, when it should be the other way around.

Pat shouldn't have had to explain why it was a bad suggestion in the first place - thats what Im getting at.

bhavv · Nov 12, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

I love the healing buffs, but I absolutely hate the cast time nerf on LoD.

Using it with Holy Haste wont work for me because the only healing spells I use in PVE are LoD, kiss and cure hex. The rest of the bar is prot enchants (14 healing, 10 prot, 10 divine, LoD, Kiss, Cure hex, dismiss condition, gole, sprit bond, aegis, res)

Thats my only build used on my hero monks in HM PVE untill now.

Avarre · Nov 12, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHunterX

Guess I have to expand on this. Outside of AB and some PvE areas where you didn't or don't have access to Heroes, HB brought by a Warrior is a decent investment. Anywhere else and your better off spending attributes in your Weapon Mastery or Strength.

Sure, a Wammo in AB can bring it. I wouldn't laugh, because AB is full of all kinds of things and you're not really worried about taking huge damage. Not everyone, however, plays AB - and therefore not everyone is going to see any use whatsoever for the skill. Even in AB, there can be better skill choices, so there will only ever be a small following for the skill.

Phoenix Tears · Nov 12, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

they shouldnt nerf Splinter Weapon, just change the turai quest..lesser enemies ...

lesser enemies = lesser drops = lesser chance to get dropped something good.
Or just let the moargonite drop in that quest nothing, or only stuff, that is needed for an other quest maybe ...

by this way this farming spot would be killed, but theres absolutely no need in nerfing splinter weapon ...

for pvp it makes no snese, and in pve it makes fighting versus huge mobs only alot harder, especially in HM, where u sometimes really need that splitter damage, to be able to survive long enough and to reduce the enemies quick enough, before they slaughter your tank away otherwise

splinter weapon will get nerfed only cause of these solo powerfarmers, which invasioned the turais's path...to mass slaughter margonites

sure, that thing will also nerf certain imba enemies in pve, which use barrage...but not really so much, as we ranger players get nerfed through it..
the HM barrage enemies will be after it still imba, we pplayers instead only much weaker then before.
before change, a ritualist with channeling 15 for example makes with SB around 7250 splitter aoe damage, with the nerf now it iwll be only like 720 ... at turais path by fighting for example vs 30 margonites, which easily come up there in the mass slaughter quest there.

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 12, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Lmao what a crappy build. You've gimped your healing potential everytime your monk casts a spell. Build = Fail

What?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

...before change, a ritualist with channeling 15 for example makes with SB around 7250 splitter aoe damage, with the nerf now it iwll be only like 720 ... at turais path by fighting for example vs 30 margonites, which easily come up there in the mass slaughter quest there.

UH. And your not seeing why that probably needs a nerf as well?

I'm still waiting on those other skills/concepts that need nerfing...

Rampage As One: (Saw this earlier) Hammer bash moved to strength, 50% failure @ 4 or less. Rampage as One: 25% ias and movement.

Spirit Spam: Max two spirits per person.

Melandrus Dervish: Immune to all conditions except burning. Burning lasts 300% longer. +100 HP. Lose 5(?) energy every time I condition would be applied (Cost to heal the condition makes sense, right?).

Mystic Regeneration: Only effected by Dervish enchantments.

Recall: Keep amazing range. You have 0 pips of energy regeneration while enchanted with this spell (Hey, assassins have crit, they can have thier energy, and if it's overnerfed, oh well).

Shadow Prison: Half shout range, causes exhaustion (hey, you want amazing bar compression, you pay for it).

Dancing Daggers: Ten second recharge.

Entangling Asp: Cripples and poisons, no longer knocks down.

Blades of Steel: ?

Horns of the Ox: ?

Aggressive Refrain: You have -20 Armor while this skill is active (Unkitable warrior? I think not.)

Just some ideas from the top of my head. Please don't hurt me!

Phoenix Tears · Nov 12, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

UH. And your not seeing why that probably needs a nerf as well?

I'm still waiting on those other skills/concepts that need nerfing...

Melandrus Dervish: Immune to all conditions except burning. Burning lasts 300% longer. +100 HP. Lose 5(?) energy every time I condition would be applied (Cost to heal the condition makes sense, right?).

the splitter damage sounds only bigger as its really is in the end, u must divide it through 30 ..than you know, what a single target got damage
and each splittre triggers only once per arrow anc per adjacent foe that got hitten through an arrow of the 6, thats affected with splinter weapon.
Howver, this nerf is a big kick into the teeth of pve rangers/rits, because only they get the punch into the belly... pvp players don't disturbs this nerf
and all this, only to destroy again 1 little famous farming spot, that mostly gives only maybe 1k per run with common drops and due to loot scaling, good drops are so or so rare ...

i think, anet has better things to do, then to nerf skills, that have no need for a nerf, only to destroy 1 massively overfarmed farm spot, like turais path

abot melandrus avatar, wit this changes, u must at least increase again the hp boost to say +175 HP ...otherwise this skill wouldnt be finally worth an elite skillm as if this skill isnt enough death nerfed... remember, at original, it gave +200 hp and was with this even under, what certain normal skills give for hp boost ....

there are other ways, how players can easily boost their HP with non elite skills to over 1000 hp ...and ? who cares... players not, anet not ..but mel's ava naturally must be death nerfed, because the com must whine about 1 elite skill ,because they all r too dumb to think for 5 minutes for anti mel ava-builds, that are easily thought out, when you know the weaknesses of mels avatar, that are easily to find out...
also when conditions dont work ..hexes will ...

arcady · Nov 12, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

I don't really see what you're getting at, meh.

I think (s)he's getting to the idea that a person hired to balance skills should know their interactions well enough to not suggest something like that. They should not need someone else to show them why it is a bad idea, they should be able to see it on their own. The idea being that, if they cannot see that on their own, then what else are they failing to grasp?

That at least, seems what the poster in question is trying to convey. Or at least is my understanding of what (s)he's trying to convey.

Nyree · Nov 12, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

i think, anet has better things to do, then to nerf skills, that have no need for a nerf, only to destroy 1 massively overfarmed farm spot, like turais path

I don't know if you read the whole topic, but the main reason for splinter nerfing was because of VoD in GvG, not because of the farm.

Basicaly they implemented this system at GvG and they made all the NPC pack together, and this made splinter very powerful. So, instead of changing the NPC AI or changing their positioning, they decided to blame the skill as the reason of the problem. If there were no VoD, there wouldn't be the nerf. The only thing we can do now is whine because they will never change the skill back...

Master Ketsu · Nov 12, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

I think (s)he's getting to the idea that a person hired to balance skills should know their interactions well enough to not suggest something like that. They should not need someone else to show them why it is a bad idea, they should be able to see it on their own. The idea being that, if they cannot see that on their own, then what else are they failing to grasp?

That at least, seems what the poster in question is trying to convey. Or at least is my understanding of what (s)he's trying to convey.

Thats exactly what Im getting at. Game balance for games like guild wars, that have complex metagames and skill combos =/= easy. But your ideas should at least make sense. I can understand and forgive "trial and error" nerfs like with what they are doing with healing prayers this week: its not always easy to tell what an effect a skill will have on a certain build/ current meta...

...but you should at least try. Just playing a SP sin in something as simple as random arenas for no more then three matches can tell anyone why the BLS suggestion I was pointing out wouldn't do jack crap to stop it. The thought process behind it sounds like "Oh dear... people are complaining about some bar that has shadow prison it it, oh well Ill just randomly nerf the recharge on one of the skills and see if that helps...ya...whatever..." NO. FAIL. Pat should not have had to explain why an 18 RC on BLS wouldn't do anything to stop a build that already has a set RC of 20. It should have been blatantly obvious from the start.

Thats basically what I was pointing out to makosi. He's wondering why alot of the updates make zero sense, and Im saying "what can you expect from someone who cant even grasp the concept behind the most simplistic sin bar out their ?"

Not trying to sound like a jerk, just stating my IMHO.

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 12, 2007, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

abot melandrus avatar... remember, at original, it gave +200 hp and was with this even under, what certain normal skills give for hp boost...
there are other ways, how players can easily boost their HP with non elite skills to over 1000 hp ...and ? who cares... players not, anet not ..but mel's ava naturally must be death nerfed, because the com must whine about 1 elite skill ,because they all r too dumb to think for 5 minutes for anti mel ava-builds, that are easily thought out, when you know the weaknesses of mels avatar, that are easily to find out...
also when conditions dont work ..hexes will ...

[Anti-melee] Hexes are only strong when they are run in hexpressure teams. Otherwise, it's too easy to keep the dervish clean.

The health boost is the icing on the cake. The real goodiness is the immunity to all conditions. This means they can't be blinded, crippled, or weakened for damage mitigation, not to mention auto-eviscerate (wearying strike) that becomes accessable. Blocking is your only shot. At least this way, a BA ranger could really tear into the Dervish, limiting thier ability to be so untouchable.

A dervish running in a split is basically unbeatable atm (with the avatar up). They need to get knocked somehow.

Regardless, its the assassins that are ruining it for me now. Shadowstepping... UGH.

Sqube · Nov 12, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Kaida the Heartless: With BoS, do you want the max damage decreased, the +damage per attack decreased, or what? Also, HotO needs nerfing now? Whycome?